How do you rescue someone trapped inside a collapsed building?

Sean Tracey, chair of the Canadian Centre for Emergency Preparedness, will take your questions on emergency rescues Wednesday at noon ET.

What's it like to be one of the rescuers at Elliot Lake, and could they have done anything differently after the mall roof collapsed? Sean Tracey, chair of the Canadian Centre for Emergency Preparedness, took your questions. Mr. Tracey has a long history in the Canadian Forces, engineering and is a past director of the Canadian Council of Fire Marshals and Fire Commissioners.

by Chris Hannay 6/27/2012 4:48:23 PM

Welcome, Mr. Tracey.

by Chris Hannay 6/27/2012 4:01:03 PM
Thanks for hosting this Chris.

by Sean Tracey 6/27/2012 4:01:26 PM
Let's start at the beginning: hypothetically, the roof collapses in a mall. Rescue workers are called. What's the very first thing they have to do?

by Chris Hannay 6/27/2012 4:02:21 PM
How does one devise the plan to deal with a collapsed building like this? Who is on the team? What are the first steps?

by AGreer 6/27/2012 4:03:19 PM
The initial emergency responders from the community would make an intial assessment and see if they can rescue any victims. Afterwords they may request outside help.

by Sean Tracey 6/27/2012 4:03:43 PM
To follow on AGreer's question, how do you devise a rescue plan?

by Chris Hannay 6/27/2012 4:04:57 PM
The Teams follow a standard template used worldwide. Check out the FEMA USAR website for some details. Canada has customized these a minor amount. Every plan is different. You go on site and try and stabilize the major risks then seek out signs of survivors. From the location or signs of survivors and the debris pattern a plan is improvised.

by Sean Tracey edited by Chris Hannay 6/27/2012 4:05:44 PM
Again every plan is going to be different on each site.

by Sean Tracey 6/27/2012 4:06:13 PM
So how is this playing at Elliot Lake, where the roof of a mall collapsed?

by Chris Hannay 6/27/2012 4:06:59 PM
Team members are volunteers coming from emergency services such as Toronto Police, Fire, EMS ec.

by Sean Tracey 6/27/2012 4:07:36 PM
The Elliott Lake is a challenge because it is in the interior core of the building and while trying to do the initial entry there were slabs still falling plus concerns over an unstable escalator. These complicated a traditional rescue and took great time and effort just to get it. It was unknown whether other portions of the building might also collapse.

by Sean Tracey edited by Chris Hannay 6/27/2012 4:09:23 PM
Also complicating Elliot Lake is potential for gas leakage from the food court area, and the unstable motor vehicles that came in with the collapse.

by Sean Tracey edited by Chris Hannay 6/27/2012 4:10:30 PM
Does the remoteness of Elliot Lake further complicate matters?

by George8 6/27/2012 4:11:35 PM
I do not believe so. These teams have their equipment caches ready to go and be transported once given the okay. They have also the capability to go to international destinations during wide spread earthquakes. Elliott Lake was accessible by road. One problem is that the remoteness of Elliott Lake meant aditional heavy equipment resources were not locally available.

by Sean Tracey 6/27/2012 4:13:46 PM
What kind of heavy equipment?

by Chris Hannay 6/27/2012 4:14:37 PM
We see them now using larger complexes pieces to aid in debris removal and that could break through debris. On site initially might have been cranes but that meant getting people into the debris to secure the stuff to be removed. They are now going through undestroyed portions of the mall to gain access.

by Sean Tracey 6/27/2012 4:16:46 PM
No one should ever stop. Is there anyway to look for a "heat signature from above the scene ?

by Brian 6/27/2012 4:17:18 PM
Broadening that out, what tools do rescue workers have to figure out if someone is trapped inside a collapsed building?

by Chris Hannay 6/27/2012 4:18:35 PM
Heat signatures are difficult because of the large thermal mass of the concrete slabs. They instead rely on listening devices, small cameras they can snake through the debris and canines (though not sure if the dogs were part of the initial deployment). They had to stop the initial quick skilled entry they tried. Then had to re adapt their tactics. I think it has been a mischaracterization to say they stopped -- they stepped back to re-evaluate the situation. Continuing with what they were doing was not working and was risking the rescue personnel with no hope of success.

by Sean Tracey edited by Chris Hannay 6/27/2012 4:20:52 PM
The tools they have include sensitive listening devices and hi tech cameras. Some units can deploy with robotics and here at the WCDM we have even seen small-scale drones operable on site. The dogs do great work as well and can sniff out survivors and/or bodies.

by Sean Tracey edited by Chris Hannay 6/27/2012 4:22:51 PM
Sorry, GingerB. I accidentally took your question down.

But GingerB was asking about the effect of Premier McGuinty asking rescuers to keep going. What part do politicians have in these rescue operations?

by Chris Hannay 6/27/2012 4:24:05 PM
Poitics should never come into play in such a rescue mission. McGuinty's statement implies that the rescue workers were not doing enough. That cuts their credibility out from under them. They did not stop work they were re-evaluating options. That decision was made after no further signs of life were found and thus no clear direction on site where to look. The heavy equipment now becomes used in recovery.

by Sean Tracey edited by Chris Hannay 6/27/2012 4:25:20 PM
Again politicians have no role other than to support these teams. The decision to launch and methods used on the grounds are left in the hands of the experts.

by Sean Tracey 6/27/2012 4:26:27 PM
How do rescuers mentally prepare themselves to be involved in a project like this?

by AGreer edited by Chris Hannay 6/27/2012 4:27:38 PM
They are regularly trained and exercised -- in the Toronto case at a training centre in TO. But a good point is that they are never fully ready for the human side of this. This response will impact them and regrettably some of the unfair criticism they are receiving.

by Sean Tracey edited by Chris Hannay 6/27/2012 4:27:58 PM
Coincidentally, you're at a conference this week for emergency preparedness, correct? What's the mood like among everyone there?

by Chris Hannay 6/27/2012 4:29:30 PM
Yes I m attending the World Conference on Disaster Management here at the Conference Centre in Toronto. We have 1000 attendees from around the world. For those involved at municipal level in Canada they are following this. The international delegates might not relate because in their overall scheme they are talking major casualties, tsunamis, earthquakes, etc.. Not one or two victims. But two victims in a town like Elliott Lake is a catastrophe and that this can happen in Canada is also shocking to many. It will be of interest for Ontario attendees next year.

by Sean Tracey edited by Chris Hannay 6/27/2012 4:33:55 PM
With crews coming from many cities and not being used to working as a team, how do they work together to ensure the rescue goes as smoothly as possible?

by Mary 6/27/2012 4:34:30 PM
This is a team from one city and they do work together. On site the incident is being managed by EM Ontario. On large scale disasters this is a problem but this is why like the military there are international standards for these teams and Incident Command. This is not a problem in Elliott Lake. Now they did turn away one or two individuals probably because they could not credential these individuals and have never worked with them in the past.

by Sean Tracey 6/27/2012 4:37:11 PM
When the cave-in is only 20 feet wide, why don't you bring in sniffer dogs rights away, using any one of the mall's 75+ doors?

by keating gun 6/27/2012 4:38:45 PM
The problem is still getting close enough into the debris field -- might seem very easy but you still have large sections of hanging debris and a much larger area than just 20 feet wide to worry about. The structure is also still capable of further collapse because of the changing loads and stresses. The dogs might get close but then you have to get through 2+ storeys of debris and into the void spaces.

by Sean Tracey 6/27/2012 4:42:25 PM
Are inflatable rubber bags ever used to stabilize rubble piles in collapsed buildings etc. to allow safe access to victims trapped below?

by Dejayem 6/27/2012 4:42:43 PM
Yes this is part of the tools but the problem is getting them in the right position. Also the concern is that if you inflate them they can destablize the pile and create new problems. Might be preferred to block and secure the debris to prevent it from shifting and thus potentially killing someone you are trying to rescue. Extremely complicated requiring great judgment on the ground,

by Sean Tracey 6/27/2012 4:45:24 PM
An example you might use the bags to lift a slab such that it can then be slung out using a crane.

by Sean Tracey 6/27/2012 4:47:10 PM
I think we'll have to wrap it up now. Thanks for the great questions, everyone. Thanks, Mr. Tracey, for joining us.

by Chris Hannay 6/27/2012 4:47:18 PM
Thank you and we wish all the best for the family and victims in Elliott Lake.

by Sean Tracey 6/27/2012 4:48:03 PM

How do you rescue someone trapped inside a collapsed building?

Sean Tracey, chair of the Canadian Centre for Emergency Preparedness, will take your questions on emergency rescues Wednesday at noon ET.

Today's Must Reads

More from The Globe and Mail

Most Popular Stories

More Top Stories

Video

Photos

Add to Watchlist

We've run into a glitch. Please try again later.

We've run into a glitch. Please try again later.