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Ken Dryden and Roy MacGregor on why we need to rethink hockey

Globe hockey columnist Roy MacGregor and Montreal Canadiens legend Ken Dryden will be online Monday at 1 p.m. ET on globesports.com to discuss the issue of head shots and concussions in hockey and why the time has come to think about sports in a different way

  • A new National Hockey League season is upon us, but Sidney Crosby, the game’s brightest star, will not be on the ice when the puck is dropped on opening night as he continues his long recovery from a concussion he sustained in the first week of January.

    Globe hockey columnist Roy MacGregor and Montreal Canadiens legend Ken Dryden, who collaborated on the 1989 book Home Game: Hockey and Life in Canada and have worked together on literary projects since the 1972 Summit Series, will be reunited online Monday at 1 p.m. ET on globesports.com to discuss the issue of head shots and concussions in hockey and why the time has come to think about sports in a different way.

    To ask a question in advance by E-mail, send your question to drydenchat@scribblelive.com.

    Ken Dryden is a Hall of Fame goaltender and six-time Stanley Cup champion who played eight seasons with the Montreal Canadiens. He is also the former president of the Toronto Maple Leafs and a former member of the Parliament of Canada.

    Roy MacGregor covers hockey for the Globe and Mail. He has been nominated for eight National Newspaper Awards, winning twice. He is the author of some 40 books, covering everything from the hockey world to aboriginal rights and painter Tom Thomson.

    I'm globesports.com editor and Hockey Roundtable podcast host Darren Yourk and I'll be moderating this discussion.
  • Ken Dryden and Roy MacGregor join us here live at 1 p.m. ET
  • Welcome to Ken and Roy. Thanks for taking the time to talk today with our readers.
  • Thank you for setting this up, and thanks all of you for being on-line with us. This is surely a subject about which there will be lots of conversation for years to come. It's time to pick it up and really focus it. I'm really happy to do that with you.
  • We have a lot of questions. Let's get right to it.
  • Joseph asks: In Football (Soccer) when Zinedine Zidane head butted the Italian forward in the 2006 World Cup the rule was immediate dismissal. Additionally in Football (Soccer) fighting is a 3 games suspension infraction. The billions of fans watching this sport do not object to this or feel that the sport is diminished by it. Why is hockey the only team sport still approving of fighting and head shots and barbarous behaviour?
  • Joseph, I don't know entirely why it does (in part, it's because hockey came from rugby, not soccer, beginnings where body contact, and some incidental contact to the head, was natural) but the real point here is that it does, and what we do about it. We've wondered and anguished over this forever. Both sides insist they are right, and nothing changes. But now this is about head injuries and their consequences. Put the focus here. Force the debate here. If fighting or head shots or whatever create greater possibility of head injuries that we know now often have lifetime effects, you impose severe penalties because the science says you must impose severe penalties.
  • Well, Joseph, it is ludicrous, of course, that hockey stands alone when it comes to cheering and defending fighting -- they don't even have any penalty at all for fighting! -- but we have to keep away from the fight debate and stick hard to the science and reality of any and all hits to the head. That's what we need to move on. I've been calling hockey fights the "cartoon" of hockey for years and years but have never gotten anywhere in ridding the sport of this unnecessary and silly blight.
  • Jack Drover asks: I understand that Brendan Shanahann, representing both the players union and the owners mandate is to make the game as " safe as possible " for those playing it.

    If this is so, I ask: Why are the players not required to have the chin straps on their helmet tighter - as per the Hockey Canada regulation? ( one finger) If they were required to, the helmet would not move so much as a player falls to the ice, possibly avoiding a head injury. Also, Why are all NHL players not required to wear 1/2 visors. If they were required to, it would certainly reduce eye injuries.
  • Jack, I don't know the NHL rule on this. But again, put the focus on head injuries instead and you pressure those making the decisions to look at all aspects of the game in that context. The result, instead of the old arguments - I should have the right to wear my helmet any way I want ; or, Rocket Richard never even wore a helmet - the opponents have the onus on them to show that what they want won't negatively affect head injuries. And Jack, whatever safe effect visors may have, I suggest you leave that out of this now. This is about head/brain injuries. Fight that fight. Don't allow the distraction.
  • Always good to hear from you, Jack. Of course you're right. Brendan Shanahan, in fact, was one of the more visible players who seemed to believe a loose hanging strap was somehow "fashionable." It's just stupid. But, again, let's not drift away from the essential point that science has indisputable proof that hits to the head are a threat to all players' health, at whatever age or level, and that hits to the head have to be prevented as much as we are able to. We all know that accidents happen -- whether bicyling down a suburban neighborhood or playing bantam house league -- but we must do all we can to ensure that future head hits in hockey are only the accidental ones, and even those can largely be prevented by common sense.
  • Thaddius Hatte asks: When the horses get too big for the corral, you build a bigger corral. The bigger ice service doesn't have to be Olympic size; enough space to allow the better faster players the space, head shots, cheap shot hits etc. will disappear. Why isn't a larger ice surface the first and most obvious priority of players and league officials alike?
  • Thaddius, you may be right, but this is probably one of the last actions the NHL would take because of the costs etc. Put the focus on head injuries. Let the science speak for itself. Allow the science to determine the answers. And if the answers can be found in other ways - ending head shots, etc. etc. - fine. If not, what else? Then what else? And you keep at it. That's how you get to your answer, if it is the answer.
  • Money, Thaddius. Back in the 1990s, when the NHL was building or refurbishing virtually every rink in the league, many of us argued that this was the time to go to the Olympic-size surface. It fell on deaf ears. Owners weren't willing to take out that first couple of rows of super-expensive seating in order to make the game more interesting -- perhaps even more safe. Others have suggested a halfway measure -- seven-and-a-half feet wider rather than the full 15 feet -- and I'd welcome any size change. The game is superior on the larger ice surface. An alternative might be to go fulltime four-on-four. They dropped a player ("rover") before. It could happen again, though I'd rather the larger ice surface.
  • Dan Sargeant asks: While certainly the most pressing concern we have with the fighting issue (head shots as well of course - but I'd like to limit this question to fighting for now) is the matter of serious injury to players, why have we forgotten the other major reason fighting should not be allowed in hockey - that is, injuries aside, that fighting should not be an accepted part of any organized, professional sport? Why is the NHL, and commentary in general leaving out this element of the discussion?
  • Dan, I think the "fighting as an unacceptable part of sports" argument is being left out because it's been made again and again for a very long time - Roy and I know; we've made it - and nothing has changed. The proponents of fighting as a part of hockey have argued simply that it's part of the game, that if you don't have it you get much more dangerous stick-swinging etc. etc. - and because these people are central to making decisions for the NHL, they've won the day. Year after year. My suggestion is you change the argument. This isn't about fighting or no fighting. This is about head injuries and what we know now, what science has told us, are their serious, often lifetime consequences. To say to those in the NHL, the onus is on you. Show us how fighting doesn't affect head injuries, or get rid of it.
  • Thank you for this, Dan. It is an unfortunate fact of life that most hockey commentary lags far, far behind both the public and the science. My gut feeling is that this lag-time is shrinking, and that is cause for some small hope. The idea that fighting is acceptable is, to me, repugnant. But this is not a debate on fighting so much as it is a debate on the possibility of brain damage from hits, however delivered, however protected by helmet, to the fragile human brain.
  • The rules have been in place all along to keep the game in check – whether it was boarding or charging – they were there – it came down to a matter of interpretation and application. The problem being that when they took out hooking and holding and allowed the game to speed up, they didn’t also increase the level of calls for these two infractions – therefore the nonsense that has developed.
    I believe Colin Campbell was very much responsible for this – he had an excuse for everything in making g his decisions and therefore anything went.
    Too bad – but hopefully Shanahan’s actions will being the game back to a level of respect.
  • I agree, Bruce. No matter what people thought of the previous regime, good or bad, the idea of Shanahan starting with a clean slate allows for this sea change we have witnessed. It is not so much a matter of him having the courage to continue at these standards -- even get tougher -- but a matter of the NHL having the courage.
  • Bruce, it came down to, as you say, "interpretation and application," but also "will", and the will was never sufficiently there. I don't think this is about Colin Campbell, or now even Brendan Shanahan. If we focus on the personalities, then some of the debate gets distracted away from the real issue - head injuries and their consequences. And it's not just about Gary Bettman. Bring the owners into this. Many of them have kids and grandkids; their neighbours have kids and grandkids. Get them involved in making hockey a "head smart" game.
  • I read your essay yesterday, Ken - very well done and I agree. The time is now to change the game. For some years it has focused on the fighting, I think to the exclusion of great smaller players like Cournoyer, Henri R., etc. Something has to be done to level the playing field and allow players of all sizes - it would make the game more exciting as well.
  • Thanks, Mike. If we make hockey a game where hits are to stop an player from getting to the net, not also to punish, if they're a defensive strategy not an intimidation strategy, if we get rid of all but accidental head shots, you open the game up to players of all sizes, with different and exciting skills.
  • What are your thoughts about reducing the size of shoulder pads, hard elbow pads etc. on the players to reduce the force when impacting the head. Seems to me that players are hitting harder and some are targeting more sensitive areas (like the head) because their oversized equipment makes them impervious to injury. Thoughts?
  • The post-Lockout rule changes really opened the game up for smaller players like Patrick Kane. These little guys don't fight anyway, for the most part. The real problem, to me, is that we have somehow separated hockey and fighting, with hockey players playing hockey and fighters fighting. The bizarre irony to me is that the fighters can stop a game, disrupt play and momentum and then neither team is penalized in the slightest by the NHL's bizarre idea of what a "major" penalty is. If there were real penalties for fighting, it would change the game. I think the NHL will move that direction. It has to. Otherwise the game risks destroying its own garden -- if parents stop kids from playing, who one day will be there to play?
  • Frank, in part that's right. You introduce equipment to lessen injury and the result can be that equipment is used as a weapon to generate injury - you can see that in football with the helmet. Once football players ran and tackled with their heads high, not down. I think looking at equipment is important in any kind of focus on a "head smart" game - both for protection, and for the safety of your opponent.
  • The equimpment has spun out of control, Frank. I was fortunate to be at the Bell Centre one night when they honoured a certain Ken Dryden. The scoreboard showed him in uniform. You could hear the gasps. People had not realized how goalie equipment had ballooned. Ken is huge, but he looked so....small. It was shocking. As for the skaters, their equipment became attack weapons not defensive buffers. Many have argued this point and, slowly, manufacturers are having to shift back to defence.
  • Do you think evolving the helmet would help? It's arguably the one piece of equipment that hasn't changed relative to the speed and power of the modern game. Look at football - it's a similar game (very fast, jaw-jarring hits, massive athletes) but their helmets put ours to shame, and head injuries aren't as prevalent.
  • Tyler, yes, we need to look at ways to make the helmet more protective. But while the football helmet may be better, I don't agree that football has fewer head injuries. I think they have more and as a sport have an even bigger problem. I think our answer is not just in equipment - helmets, shoulder pads, etc. - but in how we play the game.
  • We believed that for a long, long time, Tyler. Eric Lindros even worked hard on a far-more-protective helmet, and that showed promise. But over the past year we have learned -- largely through the work of Dr. Charles Tator -- that even if you put the player's head in a tractor trailer surrounded by bubble wrap, it wouldn't stop the effect of impact. The brain, he points out, is not unlike jello. It's fragile. It can be hurt even when seemingly totally protected. We simply have to stop hits to the head as much as possible.
  • What are the chances of players or their families suing the NHL under workplace safety legislation for damage to the brain because the league has not taken full measures to ensure the safety of its 'employees' and continues to show a blatant disregard for head injuries despite warnings from medical professionals like Dr. Charles Tator. He is a neurologist and his opinion should hold a great deal of weight.
  • I would prefer to see hockey be pro-active and act appropriately. The reason I say this is because we have been down the Royal Commission trail, down the courts trail, down the seminar and summit trail -- and got nowhere. If need be, bring in law, both criminal and civil, but I prefer to think the cause is now so urgent that the league and all of hockey will act with haste.
  • Hab/unLeaf, I don't know the answer to your question, but if I was an NHL owner or the Commissioner, I would worry about that a lot. As all of this debate over head injuries is going on, do you think for a second, players' wives and families are not getting angrier and sadder and more worried? And do you think lawyers aren't just licking their chops waiting? All this will very much get the NHL's - all leagues' - attention.
  • I like that phrase "head smart". 18,000 fans at the Air Canada Centre wearing "Head Smart" tee-shirts might get the attention of the NHL. The fastest way to get the NHL to change has to be driven by the fans who actually go to see the games.
  • Rob, that's very much a part of it. Those 18,000 fans have kids; some have grandkids; they also have favourite players - like Crosby, Kariya, Lindros etc. etc. - that they don't have the chance to see now, or anymore. They love their game, their team. They want it to be a part of their lives in a special way all their lives. This is all about making the game better - and part of that is making it safer and smarter. And we can do it. Coaches and players are among the most adaptable people on Earth. They adapt all the time and have done that all their lives. Give them some different ways to play and they will compete with each other to do it better than the other guy.
  • I’m going to jump in here with a question. His name has come up frequently in many answers, but I’ll ask in a more direct way: Does the approach taken by Brendan Shanahan this preseason give you hope we’re headed in the right direction on changing the game?
  • I think there's only one answer to that, "We'll see."
  • One thing all of us in this forum lose sight of, Rob, is the fan who loves the fights -- some to the extent that the fights are what they worship, the game secondary. It is foolish for us to dismiss this group as powerless and meaningless. Mostly, I think, it is made up of people who do not know that most hockey fights are meaningless and there is no injury (sometimes a small cut, which doesn't hurt the player at the time). These are the fights we used to see more often -- where friction and ice mean that most blows don't have much effect. If you have ever seen a bar fight (one punch) vs a hockey fight (40 punches), you would see the difference. However, in the past generation, the hockey fight has largely evolved into a staged episode involving two people who actually do know how to fight on skates, even if they can't skate all that well. There can be real damage and, most significantly, continuing damage. That requires action. And finally, there is the problem of sending out messages at a time when society disapproves of fighting in pro sports -- despite those fans who obviously love it -- and hockey needs to decide if it should listen to society. My thinking is yes, absolutely, particularly for a sport that wants to be seen as family-oriented and have an appeal beyond the "fringe" sport, which hockey-with-fighting has an excellent chance of one day becoming.
  • Yes, Darren, it gives me hope. But Ken is correct. Let's wait and see. Let us not forget that there were "crackdowns" regularly during the 1990s that failed to hold.
  • I still believe removing a skater from the ice is the way to go. Making a larger ice surface would limit the most expensive seats so that won't happen. Four skaters on four would also lessen the requirement for bodies to fill the gaps and therefore some of the less talented types would not be required
  • Ken put that notion out years before I saw anyone else say this out loud. It has some merit. It loses some historical comparisons, of course, but hockey has previously dropped a player and survived.
  • Jack Dovey asks: Re the concern over injuries, and with particular reference to fighting, I would make the comment that Hockey at the very highest level - International, is currently only played once every four years - the Olympics. The annual "Worlds" are only ignored because they are not played at full strength due to the fact that Stanley Cup matches are still in progress - they are however still subject to International rules. At the International level fighting is banned and the games are much the better for it. I do not know what rules the European teams operate under, but if it is truly representative, why doesn't the IIHF impose the same rules for all leagues?
  • Hobo, you may be right, but again let's have that as part of that larger debate and response. What is really promising that way is what 4-on-4 hockey looks like in overtime. It's pretty interesting, and coaches and players are developing new strategies to play that way.
  • The IIHF doesn't have the jurisdiction and authority to do that. But bringing this even closer to home - think about the playoffs. It's the best hockey any of us sees all year round. And it's hockey at its most intense. How many fights do you see? Almost none. How often do the goons get on the ice? Almost never.
  • he IIHF has no control over the NHL, Jack. None whatsoever. In fact, the NHL very much considers the IIHF a younger brother -- or perhaps cousin, just to put some more distance between the two. The IIHF rules that are good --fighting, icing -- have never won the day with the NHL. And yes, everyone who watches Olympics hockey notes the lack of fighting or goons.
  • Pat Waslen asks: Mr Dryden, The "Head Smart" movement needs to start at the grassroots level of all contact sports. And we need to make sure our athletes and their parents have the best available information. Too often a possible concussion was something to be dismissed. You got your bell rung, you shook it off and went back into the game.
    In 2010 we became the first and only Sport Association in Canada that adopted a mandatory concussion policy. It by all means isn't the magic solution. But it is a start. We worked with Dr Charles Tator and Dr Brian Hunt of Thinkfirst Canada to develop these policies and resources. So why as it sweeps across the United States where most state lawmakers are acting to make concussion awareness in youth sport a priority. Why in Canada are we moving so slowly?
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