Live Chat: Marsha Lederman on Fred Herzog, art and history
Globe reporter discusses issue of art and the artists that produce it
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On including myself in the story: yes, that was a tough one. As a reporter, I am not used to being part of the story. And in the initial story I filed, I really wasn't part of the story at all, beyond a single reference to the fact that my parents were Holocaust survivors. However my editor, who is a very smart man, saw that this was an extraordinary meeting: that of all people to whom the photographer might say these things, it happened to be me. Given my history, he encouraged me to explore an approach that would include my story. And I feel it was a good decision - even though it was certainly unusual for me.
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I don't have a problem with how Marsha presented the interview. The topic is sensitive, as it should be. When anyone suggests that a holocaust may not have happened the way it did, the rules of engagement and presentation change. This is no longer mere reporting. An accountability becomes necessary.
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I'm not sure what you mean, Shannon, by controlling the interview. When Mr. Herzog made the initial remark about the Holocaust, I felt it necessary to discuss what he had said. You cannot control what the interviewee says. As an interviewer, a huge part of your job is to be a good listener and engage, not just ask the questions that you've prepared in advance. (Which I assure you, were not about the Holocaust.)
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TC - I was really interested to see another reporter tweet about this over the weekend: we have all been in a position where you're interviewing someone about something and they say something controversial that is not related to the subject matter. What do you do? I think you need to use your judgment to decide whether the statement is worthy of reportage. Yes, I could have walked out of there, pretended he hadn't said those things, and written a story about photography. But I feel strongly that that would have been the wrong decision.
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Ron/Peter: I'll be honest and tell you that I have not read the comments on our website. But I have heard quite a lot about them. I am so disappointed to hear that people would stoop to these levels. It has been my experience that people who claim that "the Jews should stop complaining about the Holocaust" are not just ill-informed, but racist.
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I was shocked and disappointed to read about the views Fred held. He is a fave Canadian photographer but clearly delusional when he says he needs more facts, more data. Or that death camp survivors would have been better fed had the allies not bombed food supply trains. I mean really! But here is the issue for me - can we separate the art and the maker. Can we like the art and not have equal respect for the creator? Perhaps I will be more resolved at the end of this forum
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Frank - this is the central question with which I've been grappling. I went through the Equinox Project Space, where a Herzog exhibition was installed until the end of April, a couple of times - and both times I was reminded of the power of Mr. Herzog's work. I am completely in love with the work he has done. As I say in the piece, it looks different to me now. Would I still want one hanging on my wall? I think for me personally the answer is fraught, of course. But I am still in awe of the work he has done as an artist.
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I think that Herzog's views on the Holocaust colour his intentions as an artist. What I as part of his audience want is to honestly understand the artist's vision. I'm now wondering if Herzog's vision in his photographs can be compared to the social realism that the Nazis promoted? Essentially, what is the true context of Herzog's photographs?
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On Wagner and the others: I have seen The Ring. I have enjoyed it immensely. I don't believe that we should not listen to his music because of his anti-Semitism. In a way, I feel like it's the ultimate victory: Jews can not only enjoy his music, but a lot of musicians who play it are Jewish too. I am absolutely opposed to any protest that happens outside a concert hall that is staging a Wagner opera. Censoring art is not the answer.
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I don't find anything very Nazi in Mr Herzog's work. I do find Wagner's work offensive. I think that the personality of the artist comes through in his or her work. Mr Herzog's views, while a cause of unhappiness today, are, I suspect, not very unusual in a person born in Germany when he was born. I didn't find any indication in the interview that Mr Herzog hates Jews or wishes Jews any harm.
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On timing, Peter, I can tell you that we did not time to piece to run just before these award ceremonies. That's just how it happened to work out. I am sure the winners of both the Scotiabank Photography Award (handed out this coming Wed.) and the BC Book Awards (which will be awarded on Saturday) have long been determined.
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Will these revelations affect Fred Herzog's career? I don't know. His career has been remarkable: he worked in obscurity for decades and became a star in his 70s. It's amazing. And I don't think that this piece will (or should) change the fact that he is a pioneer - his work in colour photography predates many others who work/worked in that medium.
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Ron - I don't know about having sympathy because of his advanced age, but I certainly did question whether he has his faculties about him. As I wrote in the article, he was lucid, articulate, and could remember details with great accuracy. Perhaps at his advanced age, he is a little more free about what he says. Or maybe the scars are starting to show a little more profoundly.
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I won't press "return" anymore. Sorry about that! On the question of whether I should have been harder on Herzog, yes there was some reaction suggesting just that. One email I received came from someone who felt the redemption offered at the end was inappropriate, and he wrote that, he took pains to say, as a historian.
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I liked the redemption part. That's what this is all about, isn't it? I loved Marsha's story. I saw a man who was struggling to come to terms with the unspeakable atrocity committed by his country, by his people, when he was a child. I can forgive him for being in denial. It's human. We all do it. But he had the courage to correct himself and apologize when confronted about it. I think Fred Herzog was damn lucky to meet Marsha at his late age.
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Shannon - on your question of whether I would do anything differently if I had the interview to do again: I don't think the issue was anything I did wrong in the interview. I might have stayed longer and probed those questions further while we were there, in the room, together. (As it was, I was there for 1.5 or 2 hours.) I returned to the subject of his art after he made the initial comments because, quite honestly, I was stunned and wasn't sure how to proceed. But he returned to the subject of the Holocaust and expanded on his questions with very little prompting. I will say that he was very generous with his time: he spent probably two more hours on the phone with me in subsequent conversations. He does have a tendency to ramble, I will add, but as I say: I don't buy "slip of the tongue" arguments.
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Also Shannon listening back to the tape (as I did many times), I am surprised at how calm I was and non-confrontational. I'm glad I was able to keep my cool, even if my head was swimming at the time. But some people have suggested I should have been "tougher" on him in that interview. I disagree. I feel I dealt with it at the time in the best way I could have. And in all honesty, I liked him personally, very much.
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I stand by the redemption, too. I truly feel this is the most Canadian story I will ever write: how amazing that he and I should come together in that living room to talk about art and have our lives unfold before us like that. Yes, denial is unforgivable. But is he a Holocaust denier? Is that how people see it?
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Peter Scowan, I agree exactly with you. Marsha Lederman started to report on an important body of work in photograaphy and, with a small item that might have been let to pass, she opened up a darker, deeper and more complex matter Then she reported what had happened in a straightforward way. Whether or not you approve of Herzog's conversion, it seems to the reporter to have been genuine. Whatever the state of Herzog's mind, BRAVO to Lederman for going into this so deeply and for reporting it so well.
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Frank makes a good point, too. I did wonder how it was that I supposedly changed his point of view after 20 minutes or so as I told him about my family, when, as he indicated, he has heard many of these stories before from friends who are Jewish. Yes, I did wonder about that.
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You have to wonder, I'll admit. But I don't see him as a Holocaust Denier. There is no record of him prosteltyzing on the subject. I'm more inclined to see a man who knows full well the unpardonable crime his country committed and would perhaps like to wish it away. It's not the same thing.
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Is there more to write about this story? I really hope not, actually. But there may be. I don't know if there is fallout to come. If there is, we will write about it. I say "I hope not," by the way, because this has been an emotional struggle for me on many levels, as I think is fairly apparent by reading the story. I conducted a fair bit of research throughout this process into my own family's history, accessing archives and having several lengthy conversations with my mother's sister, another Auschwitz survivor. It has been painful and difficult. But I believe it was an important story to write.
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