Any political party that wishes to either retain or grasp office needs four basic ingredients:
1. Money with which to fight the campaign - which has been mottled by the Conservative bill to do away with federal electoral subsidies 2. A power base from which to operate - and the Liberals have lost all past such fortresses including Quebec, Toronto, the Maritimes and Liberal Ontario 3. A past record that promises success - their past record of the last four elections has reduced Liberal standing from 135 seats to 34; that's a deadly legacy. 4. The prospect of being able to negotiate a coalition with an ideologically compatible political party - an eventuality that simply does not exist.

While the Grits' prospects look decidely bleak, who else could fill the vacuum on the centre-left? The day will come when voters want to turf the Tories; it's hard to imagine Canadians electing a government as far from the centre as the NDP.

To add: at both times Ryan from BTown lists, the Liberal party were operating on a two-party system. It was much easier to go from opposition to power than it is now, when they are stuck in third place, which is the equivalent of a political purgatory.

The person who says it's hard to imagine Canadians electing a government for far from the centre as the NDP assumes the NDP is always going to be far from the centre. It's not far from the centre now and Jack Layton was taking it closer to the centre.

You're asking if the decline of the Liberals began when the Martin "strategists" took out Sheila Copps? It began long before that (and I agree 100 per cent with Peter Newman): it began when they ran out of ideas and turned on each other; it began when they lost Keith Davey and couldn't replace him; it began when their party machinery rusted to a halt.

I totally agree with Michael Valpy on the point about the NDP. I remember the late Bob Winters' comment during the Liberal Leadership race of '68 when he said, "When someone shows me the centre, that's where I'll stand."

Kyallglennie: do you mean to ask if the Liberals could 'unbrand' themselves?

What are your thoughts on the outlook of the next Generation of Post Secondary Educated Young Canadians aka people born after 1985 (Given that Canada is approaching one of the highest attainment rates in OECD). Would they be leaning towards the NDP as opposed to the Liberals in the next two federal elections?

yes- in Alberta, they have suggested re-naming themselves. my sense from BC was federal Liberals support the BCNDP (and Vision Vancouver municipally). Could they do the same - re-brand to stay alive?

The undecisiveness of Stephane Dion ran it further under the ground(Not saying he's incompetent). But the Liberals are not dead. When you're that far down in the ranks, any victory is significant. The Liberal party is going to attract individuals who want to give it just that

Point of order. I never wrote the decline "began" with the axing of Copps; I said it "escalated." Big difference. Actually -- and I was there -- it began when Chretien refused to accept John Turner's convention victory and began conspiring against him.

kyallglennie: No. Because they then wouldn't be the Liberals.

Frank Graves of EKOS Research says there's data that shows that if only Canadians under 30 voted, there'd be a minority Green Parliament and if only Canadians over 60 voted there'd be a 250-seat Conservative Parliament. I think there's a huge generational values gap in Canada and I agree with Mr. Graves that the generational gulf in Canada is likely the widest in the world and it poses a serious threat to the legitimacy of our democracy. The overwhelming majority of Canadians under age 40 don't vote. But if they voted? They're more likely to vote NDP than Liberal but there's no evidence that that's chipped in stone.

They hurt him significantly enough to shred the identity of your typical Liberal. However, they WILL be able to win back the people that have been "disappointed" (so to say) because the Liberal ideology vastly differs from any other party. Once a Liberal, Always a Liberal. Its like a pleasurable infection.

Ray Heard: There is certainly truth in that. Especially when Turner picked his own unorthodox Quebec Lieutenant.

Huzaifa: they were able to attract audiences, but you can't argue with the election results. Whatever the leader did or said could not translate into support.

Mr. Apps and Mr. Davey didn't sell him to Rosedale or anywhere else, including his own constituents.

A long time ago an Ontario MPP said to me "being Liberal means having a heart but paying the bills." That sentiment I think probably reflects the values of many Canadians, and would seem to be the building block for becoming relevant to Canadians again - Cons have no heart, NDP won't pay the bills, the Libs are just right. Do you think that message can be a path to electoral success?

The Liberal Party isn't dead it's merely very illiberal.

@Michael Valpy Touche

@mbi It's a valid message but much will depend on who is selling it and whether the national accounts will be large enough to carry a progressive platform.